The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.

On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.

Which one is considered primary?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

In article >,
Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
> Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
> sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
> under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>
> On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
> I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
> navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.
>
> Which one is considered primary?

Your brain.

Roy Smith wrote:
>> The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
>> Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
>> sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
>> under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>>
>> On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
>> I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
>> navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.
>>
>> Which one is considered primary?


I fly an Arrow that is equipped with a Garmin 430, King KX-155 nav-com, ADF and
a DME that's crapped out at the moment. I use the GPS as my primary nav radio
for enroute segments and the King for approaches. I generally have the GPS
showing the moving map and feeding one of the OBSs as well. If the GPS were to
go tango uniform on me, I'd just use the King to get myself on an established
victor airway and go from there.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Seems to me the primary is related to the route you filed. If you're
flying direct, likely the GPS is primary. If you filed airways,
technically the VOR is primary because the airway is defined by
radials. Even though my 2 VOR's usually agree within 1 degree, The GPS
doesn't give me exactly the same course. Even so, I tend to use the
GPS as primary and use the VORs to check cross bearings. Part of the
reason is that I can enter the flight plan into the GPS and let the
STEC do the work while I monitor traffic and communications.

Ham Sandwich

In article >,
Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
> Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
> sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
> under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>
> On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
> I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
> navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.
>
> Which one is considered primary?

How about this: primary is the one(s) used to meet the requirements
for the particular navigation (a VOR for a VOR approach, the ADF when
flying an NDB approach, IFR GPS when etc etc). Everything else is used for
situational awareness.

--
Bob Noel
New NHL? what a joke

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:03:15 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
>Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
>sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
>under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>
>On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
>I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
>navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.
>
>Which one is considered primary?

What do *you* mean by "primary"?

I don't see "primary" defined in either 1.1 or the P/CG in the sense of
navigation equipment. However, there is this quote from the AIM which may
be applicable to your situation. Note that the use of GPS as "primary"
(from an FAA point of view) depends on where you are using it:

"...The FAA has granted approval for U.S. civil operators to use properly
certified GPS equipment as a primary means of navigation in oceanic
airspace and certain remote areas. Properly certified GPS equipment may be
used as a supplemental means of IFR navigation for domestic en route,
terminal operations, and certain instrument approach procedures (IAPs). "

Also:

"VFR and hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation,
instrument approaches, or as a primary instrument flight reference. During
IFR operations they may be considered only an aid to situational
awareness."


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 12/2/05 9:36 AM, in article ,
"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:03:15 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>> The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
>> Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
>> sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to fly
>> under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>>
>> On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my location,
>> I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
>> navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is operational.
>>
>> Which one is considered primary?
>
> What do *you* mean by "primary"?
>
> I don't see "primary" defined in either 1.1 or the P/CG in the sense of
> navigation equipment. However, there is this quote from the AIM which may
> be applicable to your situation. Note that the use of GPS as "primary"
> (from an FAA point of view) depends on where you are using it:
>
> "...The FAA has granted approval for U.S. civil operators to use properly
> certified GPS equipment as a primary means of navigation in oceanic
> airspace and certain remote areas. Properly certified GPS equipment may be
> used as a supplemental means of IFR navigation for domestic en route,
> terminal operations, and certain instrument approach procedures (IAPs). "
>
> Also:
>
> "VFR and hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation,
> instrument approaches, or as a primary instrument flight reference. During
> IFR operations they may be considered only an aid to situational
> awareness."
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Enroute, I can't always be sure what would be considered my primary nav
source "from an FAA point of view" since I'm using more than one, that's
why I started this thread.

I can file direct, but that isn't always immediately given me by ATC upon
takeoff. It seems I'm usually given vectors and my "primary" navigation is
the guy looking at me with the radar, I'm just looking at my DG, following
instructions and cross-checking my position with everything I've got on
hand. Once I get to a certain point, then I'm given "direct to XYX" and I
"resume own navigation" from there and the Garmin 430 is most likely my
primary.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

> The recent GPS/IFR discussions here got me to thinking. I generally fly an
> Arrow, equipped with a Garmin 430, 2 VORs, Loran, my handheld GPS, my
> sectionals, low enroute charts, and since I got my IFR ticket, I try to
fly
> under ATC control as often as possible to keep my comm skills up.
>
> On cross county flights, I fiddle with the VORs and cross check my
location,
> I set the Loran (if it's working that day), etc. In other words, for
> navigation, I use everything inside and out the cockpit that is
operational.
>
> Which one is considered primary?

The one providing course guidance on your HSI. If you're not HSI equipped,
its the CDI somewhere in the cockpit that you use for course guidance. If
you use a bunch of stuff at the same time, then the question doesn't mean
anything.

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:59:57 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>Enroute, I can't always be sure what would be considered my primary nav
>source "from an FAA point of view" since I'm using more than one, that's
>why I started this thread.

As I wrote, the FAA doesn't define "primary" in the PC/G and it's not
defined in 14 CFR 1.1.

If there is a need for you to have a definitive answer, you could try
writing the FAA Chief Counsel. But there may be no answer forthcoming
unless there is some operational reason to come up with one.

And, in the case of a non-commercial Part 91 small aircraft flight, such as
it seems you are describing, I don't see an operational reason to answer
that question.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 12/3/05 8:07 AM, in article ,
"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:59:57 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>> Enroute, I can't always be sure what would be considered my primary nav
>> source "from an FAA point of view" since I'm using more than one, that's
>> why I started this thread.
>
> As I wrote, the FAA doesn't define "primary" in the PC/G and it's not
> defined in 14 CFR 1.1.
>
> If there is a need for you to have a definitive answer, you could try
> writing the FAA Chief Counsel. But there may be no answer forthcoming
> unless there is some operational reason to come up with one.
>
> And, in the case of a non-commercial Part 91 small aircraft flight, such as
> it seems you are describing, I don't see an operational reason to answer
> that question.
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

If the FAA says I can't use a VFR GPS as my primary nav source, that
indicates to me that they must have a way of defining it, or at least expect
me to be able to, although without telling me how. But I guess I'm expecting
logic from a government agency.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ham Sandwich

I can't comment on the legality but I would like to point out from a
historical perspective that the sandwich envisaged in the classic
Travis-Noel 1998 debate (which I believe was its first occurence on
rec.aviation.ifr) was in fact, tuna.

:-)

Julian

> I can't comment on the legality but I would like to point out from a
> historical perspective that the sandwich envisaged in the classic
> Travis-Noel 1998 debate (which I believe was its first occurence on
> rec.aviation.ifr) was in fact, tuna.

If it was Charlie the Tuna, wouldn't it be a ham?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article >,
"Julian Scarfe" > wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Ham Sandwich
>
> I can't comment on the legality but I would like to point out from a
> historical perspective that the sandwich envisaged in the classic
> Travis-Noel 1998 debate (which I believe was its first occurence on
> rec.aviation.ifr) was in fact, tuna.
>
> :-)
>
> Julian

We used to use tuna, but then we discovered that the mercury content
interferes with the GPS signal.

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:20:32 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>... I guess I'm expecting logic from a government agency.

Ah -- there's your error <sigh>!!

"We're from the FAA, and we're not happy until you're not happy!"





Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:59:57 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Enroute, I can't always be sure what would be considered my primary nav
>>source "from an FAA point of view" since I'm using more than one, that's
>>why I started this thread.
>
>
> As I wrote, the FAA doesn't define "primary" in the PC/G and it's not
> defined in 14 CFR 1.1.
>
> If there is a need for you to have a definitive answer, you could try
> writing the FAA Chief Counsel. But there may be no answer forthcoming
> unless there is some operational reason to come up with one.
>
> And, in the case of a non-commercial Part 91 small aircraft flight, such as
> it seems you are describing, I don't see an operational reason to answer
> that question.
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

The FAA doesn't need a regultion to set forth policy. The FAA policy
remains that VOR is the primary method for domestic en route IFR
navigation. This is related to the ICAO definitions of Class I and
Class II navigation.

Y'all,
Consider the latest out of date sectional
Gene Whitt

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:35:41 GMT, "Gene Whitt" >
wrote:

>Y'all,
>Consider the latest out of date sectional

You have them that new?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Gene Whitt
>